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	<title>Comments on: How to Kill a Community?</title>
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	<link>http://www.oakinnovations.co.uk/blog/2007/11/30/how-to-kill-a-community/</link>
	<description>Blogging the web, usability and apple.</description>
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		<title>By: Darren</title>
		<link>http://www.oakinnovations.co.uk/blog/2007/11/30/how-to-kill-a-community/comment-page-1/#comment-10864</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 03:02:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oakinnovations.co.uk/blog/2007/11/30/how-to-kill-a-community/#comment-10864</guid>
		<description>Appreciate your post Simon. I think Skellie&#039;s said most of what I wanted to say. But let me add:

You&#039;re right that the community is doing a lot of the work (I&#039;m not sure it&#039;ll be most of it - last time most of the submissions from readers were 3-4 paragraphs (10 minutes work?) and it took me 4-5 hours to pull it all together.

As we&#039;ve said in the post - the money goes three ways. Partly to Skellie, partly to a prize which will be given to one person who submits a helpful piece of advice and partly (if there&#039;s anything left) to me. So in a sense the community gets something back by having the chance to win a prize. I think they also get something back by seeing a blog get consulting in a public way. 

Yep we could have done it for free, but in my mind the money helps us in a number of ways:

- to get it done more professionally (to be able to hire someone of 
- give incentive for everyone to participate and give great advice (hopefully there will be more submissions and better thought through ones with the prize as incentive)
- help us filter submissions (last time I asked people to submit themselves for something I had hundreds of submissions)
- gives the blog being reviewed a reason to take it seriously (unfortunately the last blog that we did it for for free seems to have made a few tweaks and then let it die - what a waste!)

I also see it as a learning experience. I&#039;ve never seen a blogger attempt this kind of thing before and see this as an experiment and potentially a new  way for bloggers to monetize their blogs (which is after all what my blog is all about).

It&#039;s not a perfect model but it&#039;s a learning experience on many fronts and I&#039;m sure in the months ahead it&#039;ll evolve.

Looking at the quality of those who&#039;ve applied (there is around 30 of them now) there&#039;s a lot of people who don&#039;t mind paying for this and I guess next week we&#039;ll see how many readers are interested in participating.

I do appreciate your comments - they go into the mix of everyone else&#039;s as we review what we&#039;re doing and attempt to find something that is helpful for everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Appreciate your post Simon. I think Skellie&#8217;s said most of what I wanted to say. But let me add:</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right that the community is doing a lot of the work (I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;ll be most of it &#8211; last time most of the submissions from readers were 3-4 paragraphs (10 minutes work?) and it took me 4-5 hours to pull it all together.</p>
<p>As we&#8217;ve said in the post &#8211; the money goes three ways. Partly to Skellie, partly to a prize which will be given to one person who submits a helpful piece of advice and partly (if there&#8217;s anything left) to me. So in a sense the community gets something back by having the chance to win a prize. I think they also get something back by seeing a blog get consulting in a public way. </p>
<p>Yep we could have done it for free, but in my mind the money helps us in a number of ways:</p>
<p>- to get it done more professionally (to be able to hire someone of<br />
- give incentive for everyone to participate and give great advice (hopefully there will be more submissions and better thought through ones with the prize as incentive)<br />
- help us filter submissions (last time I asked people to submit themselves for something I had hundreds of submissions)<br />
- gives the blog being reviewed a reason to take it seriously (unfortunately the last blog that we did it for for free seems to have made a few tweaks and then let it die &#8211; what a waste!)</p>
<p>I also see it as a learning experience. I&#8217;ve never seen a blogger attempt this kind of thing before and see this as an experiment and potentially a new  way for bloggers to monetize their blogs (which is after all what my blog is all about).</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not a perfect model but it&#8217;s a learning experience on many fronts and I&#8217;m sure in the months ahead it&#8217;ll evolve.</p>
<p>Looking at the quality of those who&#8217;ve applied (there is around 30 of them now) there&#8217;s a lot of people who don&#8217;t mind paying for this and I guess next week we&#8217;ll see how many readers are interested in participating.</p>
<p>I do appreciate your comments &#8211; they go into the mix of everyone else&#8217;s as we review what we&#8217;re doing and attempt to find something that is helpful for everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.oakinnovations.co.uk/blog/2007/11/30/how-to-kill-a-community/comment-page-1/#comment-10862</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 02:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oakinnovations.co.uk/blog/2007/11/30/how-to-kill-a-community/#comment-10862</guid>
		<description>Thanks for taking the time to comment Skellie.  My main problem with this isn&#039;t really the fact that it&#039;s the community doing the majority of &quot;the work&quot;, like I said, I&#039;ve done a similar thing away from blogging myself.  Being an enabler of such projects is an art.  My main problem is that for all the time I&#039;ve been reading Pro Blogger, it&#039;s always been a level playing field.  The tips Darren has written (and you&#039;re right, I&#039;ve followed some of them through right here, and on other blogs) have always been applicable to everyone.  There was no &quot;entry charge&quot;.  It&#039;s liberating to think that all the readers are treated equally regardless of any success (some of the recent Pro Blogger polls really demonstrate that the readership runs the gamut from brand new through to highly successful).  Now that there is an &quot;entry charge&quot;, at least for one aspect of the site, it doesn&#039;t sit right.

As I said earlier, I have absolutely no problem with you being paid to do this difficult job.  If it were me, however, I think I would have taken a trusted member of the Pro Blogger community and asked them to run it for free (in exchange they would get exposure, links etc.).  That way, there would be no need to charge at all.  Of curse, there are some pitfalls in doing it this way, but I&#039;m sure Darren is experienced, and savvy enough to be aware of them and mitigate accordingly.  It also would have prevented the (albeit small) doubt some people have regarding this exercise.  And I don&#039;t doubt that it will be popular and successful, and those who do have doubts will exercise their ability to chose whether or not to participate or not.  On that note, if I feel I can  add something to the conversation, I still will.  In the same way I hoped Darren wouldn&#039;t show prejudice against those bloggers who don&#039;t have budgets, I wouldn&#039;t want to show prejudice against those that do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for taking the time to comment Skellie.  My main problem with this isn&#8217;t really the fact that it&#8217;s the community doing the majority of &#8220;the work&#8221;, like I said, I&#8217;ve done a similar thing away from blogging myself.  Being an enabler of such projects is an art.  My main problem is that for all the time I&#8217;ve been reading Pro Blogger, it&#8217;s always been a level playing field.  The tips Darren has written (and you&#8217;re right, I&#8217;ve followed some of them through right here, and on other blogs) have always been applicable to everyone.  There was no &#8220;entry charge&#8221;.  It&#8217;s liberating to think that all the readers are treated equally regardless of any success (some of the recent Pro Blogger polls really demonstrate that the readership runs the gamut from brand new through to highly successful).  Now that there is an &#8220;entry charge&#8221;, at least for one aspect of the site, it doesn&#8217;t sit right.</p>
<p>As I said earlier, I have absolutely no problem with you being paid to do this difficult job.  If it were me, however, I think I would have taken a trusted member of the Pro Blogger community and asked them to run it for free (in exchange they would get exposure, links etc.).  That way, there would be no need to charge at all.  Of curse, there are some pitfalls in doing it this way, but I&#8217;m sure Darren is experienced, and savvy enough to be aware of them and mitigate accordingly.  It also would have prevented the (albeit small) doubt some people have regarding this exercise.  And I don&#8217;t doubt that it will be popular and successful, and those who do have doubts will exercise their ability to chose whether or not to participate or not.  On that note, if I feel I can  add something to the conversation, I still will.  In the same way I hoped Darren wouldn&#8217;t show prejudice against those bloggers who don&#8217;t have budgets, I wouldn&#8217;t want to show prejudice against those that do.</p>
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		<title>By: Skellie</title>
		<link>http://www.oakinnovations.co.uk/blog/2007/11/30/how-to-kill-a-community/comment-page-1/#comment-10842</link>
		<dc:creator>Skellie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 23:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oakinnovations.co.uk/blog/2007/11/30/how-to-kill-a-community/#comment-10842</guid>
		<description>Simon, thanks for exploring the situation more thoughtfully. I don&#039;t think anyone would disagree that it&#039;s regrettable that some will miss out. However, there have already been enough expressions of interest to fill out the &quot;Community Consultations&quot; for months. If it were free, you can bet that a significant portion of ProBlogger readers would apply -- probably in the thousands. There&#039;s no way we could review them all. What does the selection criteria become then? You have even more people missing out.

If there is a significant demand to pay for a valuable service, it wouldn&#039;t make sense for Darren (or anyone) to reject it, particularly considering the topic of the blog. He, like everyone, has a family to support. I also don&#039;t think your argument about this practice not benefiting struggling blogs is flawed. Each community consultation contains a lot of tips struggling bloggers can transfer to their own blogs.

Your key issue with the service seems to be that it will be a paid spot where commenters are reviewing the blog (in addition to myself). I want to point out that commenters get some pretty good benefits:

A link in a busy comment threat (via their name)
Profile in design reviews and consulting, if their contribution is good
The chance to win a (not-insignificant) prize
One thing we might consider is also highlighting the comments of specific commenters (with a link) if they encapsulate pro/con of the design really well.

I also want to point out that the choice to comment or not is an individual one. If you don&#039;t want to be part of the service, you don&#039;t have to be. Judging by the reactions of most, though, I think a lot of people will enjoy the chance to take part. Even if you put a few minutes work into something that helps Darren out, is that so objectionable? He writes content every day for free. I can see you implementing many of his tips on this blog right here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon, thanks for exploring the situation more thoughtfully. I don&#8217;t think anyone would disagree that it&#8217;s regrettable that some will miss out. However, there have already been enough expressions of interest to fill out the &#8220;Community Consultations&#8221; for months. If it were free, you can bet that a significant portion of ProBlogger readers would apply &#8212; probably in the thousands. There&#8217;s no way we could review them all. What does the selection criteria become then? You have even more people missing out.</p>
<p>If there is a significant demand to pay for a valuable service, it wouldn&#8217;t make sense for Darren (or anyone) to reject it, particularly considering the topic of the blog. He, like everyone, has a family to support. I also don&#8217;t think your argument about this practice not benefiting struggling blogs is flawed. Each community consultation contains a lot of tips struggling bloggers can transfer to their own blogs.</p>
<p>Your key issue with the service seems to be that it will be a paid spot where commenters are reviewing the blog (in addition to myself). I want to point out that commenters get some pretty good benefits:</p>
<p>A link in a busy comment threat (via their name)<br />
Profile in design reviews and consulting, if their contribution is good<br />
The chance to win a (not-insignificant) prize<br />
One thing we might consider is also highlighting the comments of specific commenters (with a link) if they encapsulate pro/con of the design really well.</p>
<p>I also want to point out that the choice to comment or not is an individual one. If you don&#8217;t want to be part of the service, you don&#8217;t have to be. Judging by the reactions of most, though, I think a lot of people will enjoy the chance to take part. Even if you put a few minutes work into something that helps Darren out, is that so objectionable? He writes content every day for free. I can see you implementing many of his tips on this blog right here.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.oakinnovations.co.uk/blog/2007/11/30/how-to-kill-a-community/comment-page-1/#comment-10781</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oakinnovations.co.uk/blog/2007/11/30/how-to-kill-a-community/#comment-10781</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad you agree Caitlin.  It seems that some members of the Pro Blogger readership find it impossible to criticize Darren and/or the blog.  I&#039;ve no doubt this is because many want to somehow be involved, and get links from it, in the future.  You see it with many of the popular blogs about blogging.  There seems to be a feeling that if they wanted to, someone like Darren could make or break you as blogger.  It&#039;s a shame really, I&#039;m sure Darren hates &quot;yes men&quot; as much as anyone.

Thanks for pointing out the typo.  Just goes to prove proof reading isn&#039;t fool proof (especially when your as big a fool as me!).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad you agree Caitlin.  It seems that some members of the Pro Blogger readership find it impossible to criticize Darren and/or the blog.  I&#8217;ve no doubt this is because many want to somehow be involved, and get links from it, in the future.  You see it with many of the popular blogs about blogging.  There seems to be a feeling that if they wanted to, someone like Darren could make or break you as blogger.  It&#8217;s a shame really, I&#8217;m sure Darren hates &#8220;yes men&#8221; as much as anyone.</p>
<p>Thanks for pointing out the typo.  Just goes to prove proof reading isn&#8217;t fool proof (especially when your as big a fool as me!).</p>
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		<title>By: Caitlin</title>
		<link>http://www.oakinnovations.co.uk/blog/2007/11/30/how-to-kill-a-community/comment-page-1/#comment-10778</link>
		<dc:creator>Caitlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oakinnovations.co.uk/blog/2007/11/30/how-to-kill-a-community/#comment-10778</guid>
		<description>I hadn&#039;t even noticed that it was &lt;em&gt;you&lt;/em&gt; who made that particular comment in the ProBlogger Community Consulting post!  Yours was one of the comments I agreed with in that thread.
Not because I don&#039;t think it&#039;s worth money (I do, and I also think that a coordinator of such an event deserves to get paid) but because I agree with your point about how it&#039;ll only be the blogs that don&#039;t need as much help that can afford the Consultation.  

I&#039;m a brand new blogger.  I would &lt;em&gt;love&lt;/em&gt; the chance to get tips from a large, intelligent community of bloggers.  The chance to get honest critiques from people who know what works and what doesn&#039;t would be amazing, let alone the potential traffic from the Consultation itself.  To be honest, I could even see it being worth the $250 in the end.

However, as I said I&#039;m a new blogger.  That $250 fee would have to come straight out of my own pocket, and unfortunately I just don&#039;t have that kind of money to spend on a &lt;em&gt;blog&lt;/em&gt;.  I need that money for groceries and the like, as I&#039;m sure all new and/or struggling bloggers do.  There&#039;s no way on earth I could justify spending that kind of cash unless my blog was &lt;em&gt;already&lt;/em&gt; doing well enough to make it back for me.


(also, in your second sentence, it sounds like &quot;but&quot; is supposed to be &quot;put&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hadn&#8217;t even noticed that it was <em>you</em> who made that particular comment in the ProBlogger Community Consulting post!  Yours was one of the comments I agreed with in that thread.<br />
Not because I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s worth money (I do, and I also think that a coordinator of such an event deserves to get paid) but because I agree with your point about how it&#8217;ll only be the blogs that don&#8217;t need as much help that can afford the Consultation.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m a brand new blogger.  I would <em>love</em> the chance to get tips from a large, intelligent community of bloggers.  The chance to get honest critiques from people who know what works and what doesn&#8217;t would be amazing, let alone the potential traffic from the Consultation itself.  To be honest, I could even see it being worth the $250 in the end.</p>
<p>However, as I said I&#8217;m a new blogger.  That $250 fee would have to come straight out of my own pocket, and unfortunately I just don&#8217;t have that kind of money to spend on a <em>blog</em>.  I need that money for groceries and the like, as I&#8217;m sure all new and/or struggling bloggers do.  There&#8217;s no way on earth I could justify spending that kind of cash unless my blog was <em>already</em> doing well enough to make it back for me.</p>
<p>(also, in your second sentence, it sounds like &#8220;but&#8221; is supposed to be &#8220;put&#8221;)</p>
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